That important? Hi, everyone. Yes, I'm still around. I'm sorry I've been so absent. Life's really busy these days. I'm still writing, though, although slowly and at too many stories at once. I'm hoping I may have something finished before too terribly long (don't hold your breath). Anyway, I'm here because I have a very important subject I want to discuss: the word "that." I have now read at least two articles on writing which list "that" as a useless word that should nearly always be removed from sentences (you see what I did there?). And you know what? I really disagree with that. (the unintentional puns are abounding) While there are times that "that" is better left out than put in, most of the time I think sentences read better with it. It adds clarity and pointedness. Here's an example I found in a story I'm working on right now: "The conviction that Mr. Darcy would disapprove only made her more determined." If I wrote "The conviction Mr. Darcy would disapprove only made her more determined," then, for me, when I'm reading it, right about the time I get to the word "disapprove," I'm thinking that it's "the conviction" that Mr. Darcy's disapproving, and I have to spend the rest of the sentence sorting out the real meaning. Adding the "that" makes it more clear from the beginning. I've seen a lot of sentences like this before, where I thought a well places "that" would have definitely prevented a certain level of mid-sentence confusion. Another more subtle example: "It was obvious that something was disturbing his mind, but Elizabeth could not imagine what it might be." I could take out the "that' and the meaning would still be perfectly clear, but I think it adds a pointedness which is important for balancing the structure of the sentence. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it, but I'd like to know if any of you other writers and grammarians agree with me on this, or if I'm alone in my that-wards affinity. PS In looking for sentences to use in this post, I did find a few where I actually decided to take the that out, after looking at it more closely, so I'm not trying to advocate for its use at all times. I just think it's totally wrong to just take it out every time the grammar doesn't absolutely demand it.https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119896#msg-119896Thu, 30 Apr 2026 06:08:30 +0100 Phorum 5.2.22 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,120183#msg-120183 Re: Modes?/Re: Conjunction?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,120183#msg-120183
That aside, Mari A. wasn't only talking about tenses, she was mentioning the third person singular present indicative form of verbs in particular as an example for the suffix -s as an indicator for something other than plural. (The link leads to the wikipedia article on verbs.)]]> Katharina Tea RoomThu, 25 Feb 2016 10:44:56 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,120079#msg-120079 Modes?/Re: Conjunction?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,120079#msg-120079
Now, "modes" come to me, alien as E.T. I know of median, mean, and mode from statistics. Are these grammar modes taught above the tenth grade? (I was expelled during my tenth grade.)

I just tried "modes" in a search string, and got results in terms of math, music, and machinery. If grammar modes was in that results dump, they were so far down as to be gone.

Thank you for bearing with me.]]> Rae Elaine Tea RoomSat, 20 Feb 2016 17:06:02 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119965#msg-119965 Re: Conjunction? Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119965#msg-119965
Noun inflections notwithstanding, where -s is one of several plural markers, non-modal verbs require an -s or -es ending in the 3rd person singular present simple to denote the realis or indicative mode in the active voice. Leaving off the -s/-es changes the mode to the subjunctive.]]> Mari A. Tea RoomTue, 16 Feb 2016 10:46:31 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119945#msg-119945 Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119945#msg-119945 Linnea Eileen Tea RoomMon, 15 Feb 2016 19:42:52 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119931#msg-119931 Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119931#msg-119931 Harvey S. Tea RoomMon, 15 Feb 2016 04:39:20 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119921#msg-119921 Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119921#msg-119921 Suzanne O Tea RoomMon, 15 Feb 2016 00:08:36 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119918#msg-119918 Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119918#msg-119918 Sarah Waldock Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 22:12:32 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119917#msg-119917 Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119917#msg-119917
In the example you gave, "The conviction that Mr. Darcy would disapprove…” The word “that” alerts me I’m about to read what the conviction is. Without “that” I would probably have to reread the sentence to get the meaning.]]> Amytat Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 20:18:32 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119916#msg-119916 Re: Conjunction? Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119916#msg-119916 Amytat Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 19:58:37 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119911#msg-119911 Re: Conjunction? Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119911#msg-119911-------------------------------------------------------
> Speaking of grammar, why do you always leave off
> the -s in the third person singular?

Bless you for noticing. The key word to answer your question is in your question: "Singular."

The "s"s belong to plurals. Disobedience got my sitting end scorched until I could sit in a tub and heat my own bathwater.]]> Rae Elaine Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 18:36:14 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119908#msg-119908 Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119908#msg-119908 Dorothee Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 17:58:38 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119905#msg-119905 Re: Conjunction? Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119905#msg-119905 Lise Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 17:14:08 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119904#msg-119904 Conjunction? Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119904#msg-119904
Other writing defects get up my nose. One is using "say" or "said" with Every speaker tag, and even disjointing the speaker tag from what was spoken. The tag and the quote go into the same and one paragraph; unless it is a long-winded speech... Some tags could use "ask," "test," "complain," or any other descriptions of the nature or how it was to be said. In fact, I rarely use "say" and "said" and maybe should because it was merely said, but am apt to use "state" or "stated."

Second is my campaign. Starting sentences with "there" seem to be poorly writ. When I find that I have done so, a rewrite always seem better. I know it fall into speech, so I tolerate my characters starting sentences and paragraphs with; "there once was a young lady banker, who slept while her ship lay at anchor...."]]> Rae Elaine Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 16:38:01 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119900#msg-119900 Re: That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119900#msg-119900

For your example, Suzanne:
Quote

Here's an example I found in a story I'm working on right now: "The conviction that Mr. Darcy would disapprove only made her more determined."

If I wrote "The conviction Mr. Darcy would disapprove only made her more determined," then, for me, when I'm reading it, right about the time I get to the word "disapprove," I'm thinking that it's "the conviction" that Mr. Darcy's disapproving, and I have to spend the rest of the sentence sorting out the real meaning. Adding the "that" makes it more clear from the beginning.

Both ways leave almost the same ambiguity by the time the word 'disapprove' is reached.
1) The conviction that Mr. Darcy would disapprove…
2) The conviction Mr. Darcy would disapprove…
Both could lead you to think it's "the conviction" Mr. Darcy is disapproving. Isn't it really the fact that 'the conviction' begins the sentence that causes the problem, not the presence or absence of 'that'?]]> JanetR Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 08:53:09 +0000 https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119896#msg-119896 That important?https://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,119896,119896#msg-119896
Anyway, I'm here because I have a very important subject I want to discuss: the word "that."

I have now read at least two articles on writing which list "that" as a useless word that should nearly always be removed from sentences (you see what I did there?). And you know what? I really disagree with that. (the unintentional puns are abounding) While there are times that "that" is better left out than put in, most of the time I think sentences read better with it. It adds clarity and pointedness.

Here's an example I found in a story I'm working on right now: "The conviction that Mr. Darcy would disapprove only made her more determined."

If I wrote "The conviction Mr. Darcy would disapprove only made her more determined," then, for me, when I'm reading it, right about the time I get to the word "disapprove," I'm thinking that it's "the conviction" that Mr. Darcy's disapproving, and I have to spend the rest of the sentence sorting out the real meaning. Adding the "that" makes it more clear from the beginning. I've seen a lot of sentences like this before, where I thought a well places "that" would have definitely prevented a certain level of mid-sentence confusion.

Another more subtle example: "It was obvious that something was disturbing his mind, but Elizabeth could not imagine what it might be." I could take out the "that' and the meaning would still be perfectly clear, but I think it adds a pointedness which is important for balancing the structure of the sentence.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it, but I'd like to know if any of you other writers and grammarians agree with me on this, or if I'm alone in my that-wards affinity.


PS In looking for sentences to use in this post, I did find a few where I actually decided to take the that out, after looking at it more closely, so I'm not trying to advocate for its use at all times. I just think it's totally wrong to just take it out every time the grammar doesn't absolutely demand it.]]> Suzanne O Tea RoomSun, 14 Feb 2016 06:42:29 +0000