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For the discussion of all things Austen, and a great deal more.
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Re: How did they avoid pregnancies resulting from affairs? - 5 days ago

My understanding is children born into a marriage were presumed legitimate. As fairly recent studies have found 10-25% of children (in those studies) had "the wrong father" listed on their birth certificates (i.e., married couples), I would not be surprised if there were plenty of cuckoos in the nest when there was no way to test.
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Housing, and Rent vs owning townhouse (p&p) - 8 days ago

The Hursts' house is in Grosvenor Street, which (from my reading) was a good address, but not as fashionable as Grosvenor Square. Upper Brook Street was, I believe, considered a step above Grosvenor Square, and Park Lane was, I've read, generally the nicest address. But any of the Mayfair squares were pretty high end, and just north of Mayfair was not exactly a slum (there were two dukes living o
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: BBC News - P&P Party like it's 1813 - 9 days ago

And vacuum cleaners. I beat a rug once, just to see how well it worked - my grandmother had an old rug-beater - and the answer is, not well.
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: meant to say-left out the word not in copy above - 10 days ago

You effectively knocked down the strawman that you set up, but that doesn't make it my doesn't make it my argument. Where we diverge is that Bingley was weak because he let Darcy convince him not to return even when he would have gotten what he wanted as long as he was willing to risk his own pain and embarrassment and awkwardness (and defying someone he was used to deferring to). I do not think
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: and - 10 days ago

He might well have thought so. But he should have confirmed it, instead of relying on a friend who had spent a tiny fraction of the amount of time Bingley had spent with her. In fact, I don't recall any case in the text where it mentions Darcy having any conversation with Jane, except to say he was glad she was well on her first night downstairs - I'm sure he spoke to her more than that, but he'd
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

wow, I never meant to give that impression - 10 days ago

I certainly didn't mean to give anyone the impression that I thought Bingley should marry Jane if she were mercenary. What I was trying to say in that case was that there would be nothing noble about Bingley staying away in that case, which is not the same thing as saying it was ignoble for him to do so. I think it would be perfectly acceptable for him to turn his back on her, provided he suspect
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Bingley: heroic figure or weakling? - 10 days ago

I didn't say they were. I said I liked to think (after the girls were all married) that they found some way to be happy with one another. I think it's unlikely, but it's possible that, no longer so worried about herself (and having Lydia gone most of the time), she might become a little less annoying, and he might stop being such a jerk. This optimism is what makes me have hope for Jane and Bingl
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Yes, but ...Re: thanks for the response - 10 days ago

Well, I understand that you think a reader has to conclude this, but I don't. So far Inone of the quotes from the text that you've listed are passages I overlooked. I thought for a whole our disagreement was a matter of my not expressing myself well - I don't despise Bingley, in case I've given you that impression - but I'm pretty sure now it isn't. Regency or not, Bingley could have come back
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: A Man of No Consequence - Chapter Nine - 10 days ago

Very nice plot twist.
by Harvey S. - Derbyshire Writers' Guild

Re: Bingley: heroic figure or weakling? - 10 days ago

It might - with most authors it certainly would, but Austen is pretty subtle. I was never sure this was what she meant, and she was explicit about Elizabeth and Darcy. I like to think so, but I also like to think Mr and Mrs Bennet are generally happy, even though I would brain her with a poker inside of a week...
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Necessary attributes not mutually exclusive - 10 days ago

I do agree that Bingley is foil to Darcy, and he's certainly not supposed to be the hero. But even minor characters in the story get fleshed out pretty well, and I think it's fun to try to think about them on their own, as opposed to elements needed to advance the plot. Jane is rather underwritten in the story as well, and in some of my favorite fanfics people try to fill in the blanks on her. On
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

thanks for the response - 10 days ago

I agree with a lot of what you said, but in the end, I just don't see Bingley the way you do. We interpret the words in the book differently. I think Austen sees Bingley as being flawed by being too unsure of himself and too eager to avoid conflict (after all, he is hard on Darcy that evening at Netherfield PRECISELY because he feels his friend and Elizabeth are in danger of getting into a real a
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Bingley: heroic figure or weakling? - 11 days ago

I never said he wasn't likable, and I don't expect him to be caped superhero. But I think he behaved shamefully toward Jane, and even though he was 23 or 24 at the time, it's old enough he should have known better. In my experience, people like this rarely grow out of it, and they cause a lot of problems for the people who depend on them. They are frequently very charming and likable and fun, but
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Bingley: heroic figure or weakling? - 11 days ago

I agree with this. I'm not saying I don't understand it, or even sympathize, but I still wouldn't want someone like him to marry one of my daughters, and I think he doesn't deserve Jane (although under the circumstances it was a good match for her). And I wonder what Austen actually thought about the future of Jane and Bingley's marriage - she's explicit about Lydia and Elizabeth, but all she rea
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Raising expectations - 11 days ago

I don't disagree that Mrs Bennet might try to force her daughter to accept Mr Bingley, although it was made clear that Lizzy is her least favorite daughter. In fact, I think it's possible to conclude she actually dislikes Elizabeth - I can't imagine that Mrs Bennet feels anything but repressed anger for her husband after all this time (she'd have to be a saint otherwise, and I see no sign of it i
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Bingley: heroic figure or weakling? - 11 days ago

(deleted and reinserted to correct something) No, I would not expect Bingley to marry someone he didn't love, if that was important to him (and it's clear from the text it was). In fact, I would regard him as being weak for doing so, unless he had compromised the woman somehow, or had otherwise done something which custom dictated required he marry her, which he had assuredly not done. If he ha
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: An adaption myth.... - 11 days ago

I think it could go either way - one or both of the sisters might or might not talk Bingley about returning - but I certainly don't see Darcy as being willing to have his conversation with Caroline in the room. Darcy thinks of himself as a 'reasonable' man, and so he's going to talk his friend into doing the right thing, not try to browbeat him. And, in my view, he thinks Bingley is a weak man wh
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Bingley: heroic figure or weakling? - 11 days ago

The comments have gotten nested so deeply, I decided to pop this to the top. Mari, in the post which is the proximate cause for my response you wrote: Listening to the opinion of another and being willing to trust it is not a sign of weakness. You apply judgment in deciding whose opinion to give credence, and you might do that based upon prior experience or upon the strength of thei
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Darcy at Cambridge - 12 days ago

No, she didn't ever say where he went to school. However, given that Wickham went to Cambridge (where I'm guessing he at most kept the necessary terms, and formed very unfortunate acquaintance), and Darcy's reference to: "The vicious propensities-the want of principle, which he was careful to guard from the knowledge of his best friend, could not escape the observation of a young man of nearl
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Cambridge and Oxford - 12 days ago

One of my friends from grad school went to Cambridge, and one night we were watching SNL, and they had this skit called "Cochise at Oxford" on. I asked him if this was what Oxford was like, and he laughed and replied "pretty much". I think it's the English version of the Bay Area "Cal vs Stanford" rivalry. Those of us that went to Stanford regard Cal grads with pity, in case you're not familiar
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

caving to Darcy's view isn't a sign of strength - 12 days ago

No, he was weakly giving in to the opinion of his friend.
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Bingley with a big L - 12 days ago

Clearly we see the book in different ways. And none of my opinions of the book were formed by watching TV. Personally, I think Austen intended us to see Bingley as a weak person. He's definitely not evil, but he's not the hero of his own life. Austen had a pretty dark view of people and the world. Mr Bennet has a poor marriage because he was careless about choosing a wife, and then did not show
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

own vs. rent - 12 days ago

It's just that I am sort of dubious about the idea of tying up so much money, if he's not rich, in a piece of fashionable property. If he's a fribble, then he would do better to keep his fortune in the funds and lease the house.
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

me, too - 13 days ago

I was sure it was there, too, I can't find anything either. Maybe it's just something from the dramatizations. I can certainly remember Jennifer Ehle saying it to Susannah Harker.
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

Re: Please also see my reply to Mel above Re: the difference - 13 days ago

>> I am not sure of what you mean by a total loser. In this case I mean taking someone else's opinion over his own and disappearing. I get that he is afraid Jane doesn't love him, although letting someone else dominate him so completely as to go from thinking she does to concluding she doesn't without talking to her again is something I think only a weakling would do, especially given tha
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

I was talking about the emotional part - 13 days ago

I agree with the points you're making, but put a different emphasis on them. Naturally marriage required more care as it was fairly permanent (though people were far more likely to die then than now, with the rates of childbirth death as high as 2%), but someone wealthy and/or famous today is still subject to being manipulated, even if they can get out of the relationship now without an act of Pa
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

the difference - 13 days ago

I just don't see any way that Bingley could think what he was doing was to Jane's benefit. Consider the cases: 1) She loves him - Bingley is being a retard (losing what he wants) and a jerk. 2) She doesn't love him, but would marry him anyway - Okay, not so good for Bingley. But he's got evidence that he's raise expectation, and now he's going to disappear. Even if he believes his sister is writ
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

complexity - 13 days ago

Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't see it. Either Jane is so clever she can fool him into thinking she loves him - in which case he's got to believe himself really clueless in order for Darcy, who has never really talked to her, to know when Bingley doesn't - or he can find out what she feels by actually asking her (indirectly). I don't believe people have changed so much in 200 years. Bingley's
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

real feelings? - 14 days ago

After my wife and I started "going out", I stuck my neck out and told her I was interested in having her think about whether she'd like to marry me. Not quite a proposal, and all she had to do was either say "Ugh!" or "Might be interesting, someday..." for me to get the idea (she was much more encouraging than either of those, but didn't exactly say yes, either). I don't think people are really s
by Harvey S. - Tea Room

thanks - 14 days ago

I'm part of a startup in Silicon Valley, and after working 60-80 hours a week (which is much harder at 60 than it was the first time at 30), I don't have a lot of time for other things. I write on one of maybe 50-60 different stories that I've started for a few minutes most nights to unwind, but I almost pick them at random, so progress on any one is slow. And lots of the stories are those writte
by Harvey S. - Tea Room
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