For the discussion of all things Austen, and a great deal more.http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/list.php?4Fri, 24 May 2013 01:43:14 +0100 Phorum 5.2.19 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97676,97676#msg-97676 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97676,97676#msg-97676 Roxey Tea RoomThu, 23 May 2013 21:19:05 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97621#msg-97621 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97621#msg-97621
We dated for one week, then got married in 2 months. When you know, you know! (It took him 2 months to work up the nerve to ask me out!)]]> Roxey Tea RoomThu, 23 May 2013 06:18:30 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97620#msg-97620 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97620#msg-97620
It is unfortunate that Edmund too often gets painted as stupid, when Edward Ferrars is the stupid one for being completely deceived in Lucy. I feel Edward does not deserve Elinor, while Edmund deserves either Fanny or a reformed Mary. I read in JA's nephew's Memoir of her that JA's own favourites were Mr Knightley and Edmund Bertram. I often feel that Edmund is a younger and immature Mr Knightley, Emma a Mary C with principles, Frank Churchill a more boyish and less hardened Henry C, and Jane Fairfax a Fanny who returned Frank/Henry's affections. As Mr K said of Frank -- "With such a woman he has a chance ... and for her sake, whose happiness will be involved in his good character and conduct, I shall certainly wish him well." And Emma said to Frank -- "there is a likeness in our destiny; the destiny which bids fair to connect us with two characters so much superior to our own." Such phrases could apply to the canon-AU of MP -- the chance Henry might have with such a woman as Fanny, and in that AU, Henry and Mary would be connected to two characters so much superior to their own. I've commented in my earlier post on a marriage that could pass as happy -- the marriage of Charles and Mary Musgrove in Persuasion, I know that Edmund and Mary C are different from the Musgroves, but my point is that a couple in an imperfect marriage could also be tolerably happy or sufficiently contented, and they could put up with each other.

Btw, I seem to remember someone mentioning an MP sequel in which many years later, the children of Edmund and Fanny were surprised to receive notification from a lawyer that they were the beneficiaries of the will of a spinster lady unknown to them -- a Miss Mary Crawford who had left her money to the children of Edmund Bertram. Does anyone know -- is there such a sequel somewhere or was it a plot bunny?]]> Nikki N Tea RoomThu, 23 May 2013 05:43:33 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97602#msg-97602 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97602#msg-97602
Today he mentioned he only spoke in the bathroom at school and the bathroom at the orthoptist's. (I know, I was there.) So he's very aware of it and doesn't mind sharing his boundaries with me ;-)

He didn't even mind telling me all this in the library, 1 metre away from a total stranger who was probably listening. He was informing me where he spoke and where he didn't.

Only a few weeks until 28 June, when summer holidays start. No classes of any kind (except maybe speech?) so maybe he'll forget.]]> Lise Tea RoomWed, 22 May 2013 19:38:27 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97598#msg-97598 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97598#msg-97598
My friend's son has been diagnosed with this too. He's better now that he's a little older (12) but when he was younger (the family lived nearby and he and my son were close from the time they were 4 years old). He would talk to my son and to me( he would whisper to me) but not my husband or any of the other adults he encountered (like the Grand Master at their Tae Kwan Do lessons--Master Liu was TOTALLY baffled or the teachers at preschool or kindergarten). His mom is a surgical nurse and the father is an anesthesiologist. They took him to a therapist who said it was "selective mutism" and it usually signifies the child need to exert control and can be caused by a traumatic event. I say CAN but not always and the traumatic event can be something you might not consider terrible but is beyond their ability to cope. Things like being bullied at school, the death of someone close to them, getting a fright, or something that causes them to lose trust in an adult (like seeing them yell, verbally abuse someone, etc.) Basically the therapist advised my friend to make sure that her son felt safe at school and they worked on a gradual cessation. They negotiated him talking at school (asking OUT LOUD for permission to go to the restroom) in exchange for being able to do something fun. Eventually he talked more but even now, he still doesn't talk that much to people he doesn't know.

I don't know if that was helpful at all but I hope you get to a solution soon.

Hugs,
Pamala]]> PamK Tea RoomWed, 22 May 2013 19:06:19 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97584#msg-97584 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97584#msg-97584 Suzanne O Tea RoomWed, 22 May 2013 04:53:06 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97583#msg-97583 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97583#msg-97583
And he is very creative, like your daughter. He writes fan fiction and I know he tells stories to himself in his head for entertainment. Just like his mom in that aspect. :)

He, too, has a good group of friends. That was never a problem with him, either. Even today he makes friends wherever he goes. We've accepted him as he is, too. I just had to remark on your post because it sounds just like our own family.]]> Cindy C. Tea RoomWed, 22 May 2013 03:23:05 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97577#msg-97577 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97577#msg-97577 Brigid Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 22:04:14 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97575#msg-97575 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97575#msg-97575 Shannon K Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 22:02:30 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97572#msg-97572 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97572#msg-97572
Meanwhile, if anyone else wants to write more Edmund-centric fanfic, count on me as a reader. I agree with many of Nikki's original points that Edmund too often gets painted as a jerk or stupid, and he is neither. Too idealistic, maybe, but not stupid or mean.]]> Katharine T Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 21:24:58 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97569#msg-97569 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97569#msg-97569
Now, my granddaughter is 12 and when she was 2 we thought she was hard of hearing so we had her tested. Turns out when she concentrates she is in the "zone". This is still a terrible habit for the rest of us, but very bright children have special gifts. She also gets bored easily if not challenged and then goes into the "zone". While there I do not know that what is "cooking" in her little brain, it could be a story she is writing or telling herself or a movie that is being repeated but something to keep her entertained because she is bored.

Good luck to you. I'm sure you son is experimenting with what is available to him and when he wants to communicate he will. In the meantime you are doing the right thing to keep him challenged. I think he is just very bright and inquisitive.]]> Doris Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 20:43:04 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97567#msg-97567 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97567#msg-97567 Lizbeth Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 20:26:10 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97566#msg-97566 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97566#msg-97566
Oddly enough she's generally a compliant child who is one of the sweetest kids. However, she's never a follower, preferring to do her own thing if she's not pleased with what the group is doing. She's very social, but has no problem opting out of social situations if she doesn't approve, or is bored. For instance she preferred to sit with boys all though elementary school because, "Girls can be mean, they hurt each other, and are rude to each other. Boys usually get crude, and burp and fart, but they don't usually put in enough effort to be as mean as girls." One of her favorite activities is to write original movie scripts and act them out with miniatures and doll houses and film it. We've accepted that she marches to her own drummer and her style might not be the kind that gets noticed in school, but if she's happy we are ok with it because we think she'll be just fine without the school recognizing entirely what a gem she is.]]> Lizbeth Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 20:22:53 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97565#msg-97565 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97565#msg-97565 (though this will obviously not help if you are looking for information that could apply to a Regency based story).

Heh, no :-) I figured I'd ask here, because another site I read at tends to say 'look in the archives' and I wasn't finding anything conclusive there.]]> Lise Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 19:57:50 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97564#msg-97564 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97564#msg-97564Believe me this means she is often vastly underestimated in school, particularly with new teachers. In second grade she even told her teacher, "I'm so much smarter than you think I am."

That's one of my concerns.

My son (now 3.5) said very little for a long while, so he had speech therapy. He improved to a normal level, whether through therapy or natural improvement. But then, he suddenly decided about 2 months ago that he no longer wanted to speak in 'lesson' settings.

I had just got his teachers convinced that he is actually far ahead development-wise, when he starts this. And he's going to elementary school in September (kindergarten 1). As he's already doing work sheets at speech therapy that his brother in kindergarten 2 is doing at school, I'm not really convinced that his kindergarten teachers will address him 'on his level'. They also missed his brother's being ahead. I don't think it will draw him out to give him too easy stuff. He only started to speak in speech therapy when numbers were brought up. But I don't think that in k1 they do a lot with numbers or letters. Especially not if a child is completely silent. But I think it might be one of the keys to 'unlocking' him.

Though not the only one, because he was already getting more difficult work sheets at speech therapy.

At first he started purposely not saying what he was supposed to say. When he was supposed to say what was in an image, he described the ones next to it. He was totally aware of what he was doing. It was a game. But then he liked it so much that he started keeping his mouth shut everywhere in a lesson setting???

Now, he's extremely matter-of-fact about where he speaks and where he does not. Last week he said: 'I have no voice at gym, swimming and school. And not at speech therapy either.' The moment we are outside, he starts talking normally. If I ask why he does this, he says the equivalent of 'just so' (or, because/whatever). Or he says his voice was gone. And he can't be tricked into speaking. The speech therapist tried today. She read 7 as 8, and he used his fingers to indicate 7, but he refused to say the word. He will nod, gesture or draw, no problem.

He seems to like the classes and teachers, too (though he doesn't interact with the kids his age). I can't figure out if this is just a clever power game, phase, or a real inability.]]> Lise Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 19:47:19 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97563#msg-97563 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97563#msg-97563
He has been to counselling. I do not know if they ever pinpointed exactly what caused it, but they said it can be caused by a variety of different things. If I remember correctly (and it has been over a decade since it started so it is very likely that I am not) I seem to remember a theory that it started after my brother took him to the hospital to see my grandpa. After seeing Grandpa with all the wires and tubes hooked up to him he didn't speak to him again, even after he recovered.

He has a facebook account and seems to have no problem communicating with everyone online (though this will obviously not help if you are looking for information that could apply to a Regency based story).

I honestly do not know what he is like at school. He is in marching band, so he participates, but I do not know how well he interacts with his teachers.

Hope this helps, but like I said I only see by brother's family about every other year so I am sure there is a lot I do not know about the situation.]]> BethW Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 19:38:05 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97561#msg-97561 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97561#msg-97561 Lizbeth Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 18:55:21 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97439,97559#msg-97559 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97439,97559#msg-97559 bob e Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 18:29:51 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97557#msg-97557 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97557#msg-97557 Amy P Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 17:59:56 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97553#msg-97553 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97553#msg-97553 Janice H Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 16:52:41 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97551#msg-97551 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97551,97551#msg-97551 Lise Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 16:44:26 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97549#msg-97549 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97549#msg-97549 Erin VG Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 15:36:44 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97548#msg-97548 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97548#msg-97548
(We celebrated our 30th earlier this year!)]]> Cindy C. Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 15:30:13 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97545#msg-97545 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97545,97545#msg-97545I have aunts and uncles who are married 65 years, 62 years, 58 years and 54 years.
My in-laws are married 64 years and my parents just celebrated 57 years of marriage.
WOW! My mother recently quoted John Lennon, when she said "Love is all you need."
Way to go Mom!

Happy Anniversary to all couples married one year or longer! "Love is all you need."]]> Diane C. Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 14:03:25 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97535#msg-97535 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97535#msg-97535-------------------------------------------------------
>
> In Katherine T's Everingham, she depicts a
> marriage between them where initially they are
> very happy together, but over time, Mary becomes
> bored and discontented with the life of a quiet
> country parson's wife. I think there would be a
> real danger there. She loves city life, and she
> loves big parties and being busy. It's true that
> she finds at Mansfield that good company, with
> real, good conversation, can compensate
> surprisingly well for the lack of more events and
> people, but would she really be content to remain
> there forever? She has her city friends she wants
> to visit and see, but Edmund would inevitably
> disapprove of them, and he would probably grow to
> be less tolerant of her "inappropriate" remarks,
> especially now that she's a clergyman's wife.

Ironically, Mary did end up as a permanent member in a clergyman's home -- that of Dr Grant, and continued to live with his widow --
"Mary had had enough of her own friends, enough of vanity, ambition, love, and disappointment in the course of the last half–year, to be in need of the true kindness of her sister’s heart, and the rational tranquillity of her ways. They lived together; and when Dr. Grant had brought on apoplexy and death, by three great institutionary dinners in one week, they still lived together".

I wonder if Mary's reluctance to be a clergyman's wife was because she actually felt herself to be unequal for that role. Perhaps if she knew Mrs Elton in Emma, who believed that a clergyman's wife could still be a leader of fashion in the country, and did not give much thought about possible duties, Mary might think it would not be difficult after all! Of course, Edmund was not Mr Elton!

>Perhaps a lot would depend on Mary
> herself--would she, as Jane says, take his
> opinions as her own, and genuinely strive to be
> happy in the life he offered her ...

I would like to see this happy possibility explored -- perhaps in a sequel to Everingham, or another fanfic. Another thing -- about Edmund's prospects -- with his merits and connexions as a baronet's younger son e.g. his father's patronage, don't you think it possible that he might rise to become a Bishop?]]> Nikki N Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 05:42:40 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97526#msg-97526 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97526#msg-97526 Meg E Tea RoomTue, 21 May 2013 03:29:15 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97510#msg-97510 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97510#msg-97510
In Katherine T's Everingham, she depicts a marriage between them where initially they are very happy together, but over time, Mary becomes bored and discontented with the life of a quiet country parson's wife. I think there would be a real danger there. She loves city life, and she loves big parties and being busy. It's true that she finds at Mansfield that good company, with real, good conversation, can compensate surprisingly well for the lack of more events and people, but would she really be content to remain there forever? She has her city friends she wants to visit and see, but Edmund would inevitably disapprove of them, and he would probably grow to be less tolerant of her "inappropriate" remarks, especially now that she's a clergyman's wife. Could they have worked through it? Maybe. It would be interesting to see a story where that happened. Or they might have ended up with a compromise where neither of them was really happy--where Edmund felt he spent too much time in the city, and she felt they spent too much time in the country, where she tried to act all proper around his parishoners in exchange for him allowing her to act as she pleased in town, and each increasingly resented the other for not being what they wished. Perhaps a lot would depend on Mary herself--would she, as Jane says, take his opinions as her own, and genuinely strive to be happy in the life he offered her, or would she rebel and defy him? As easy-going as Edmund is, I don't see him as the type of man ultimately willing to let his wife dictate to him. It could be they ended up living largely separate lives, she living in town with friends for most of the year, while he remained in his parish, their children sent back and forth, almost like children of a divorce?

I think any of these are possibilities.]]> Suzanne O Tea RoomMon, 20 May 2013 16:10:47 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97503#msg-97503 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97503,97503#msg-97503
Edmund may be deceived in some aspects of Mary's character, but he was not deceived in the fact that she had genuine feelings for him, and it is a measure of his character that he managed to make such an impression on such a woman, that she found it difficult to put him out of her head even after his rejection of her (and Tom's recovery). Edmund was not Edward Ferrars who was completely deceived in Lucy. Mary is not an extreme or simplistic mercenary character with no genuine feelings such as Lucy Steele who dropped Edward Ferrars as soon as she entrapped his richer brother. Mary decided very early on that she preferred Edmund to his elder brother, although Mrs Grant had at first planned to matchmake her with Tom --

chap 7 -- "to the credit of the lady it may be added that, without [Edmund] being a man of the world or an elder brother, without any of the arts of flattery or the gaieties of small talk, he began to be agreeable to her ... There was a charm, perhaps, in his sincerity, his steadiness, his integrity,"

and when Tom returned to MP in chap 12, she had -- "the fullest conviction, by the power of actual comparison, of her preferring his younger brother ... so far from now meaning to marry the elder ... that were he now to step forth the owner of Mansfield Park, the Sir Thomas complete, which he was to be in time, she did not believe she could accept him."

Fanny thought that Mary's chances for future improvement was hopeless, but the narrator suggests that was because Fanny was inexperienced and biased in her view of Mary --chap 37 -- "Experience might have hoped more for any young people so circumstanced, and impartiality would not have denied to Miss Crawford’s nature that participation of the general nature of women which would lead her to adopt the opinions of the man she loved and respected as her own."

And at the end of MP, Mary was still living with a widowed Mrs Grant because she found it difficult to find "any one who could satisfy the better taste she had acquired at Mansfield, whose character and manners could authorise a hope of the domestic happiness she had there learned to estimate, or put Edmund Bertram sufficiently out of her head."

Henry too is a complex character, while Willoughby in S&S "frequently" enjoyed himself with his rich wife's money and his wife who was "not always out of humour", his horses and dogs and sporting, Henry suffered "vexation that must rise sometimes to self–reproach, and regret to wretchedness, in having so requited hospitality, so injured family peace, so forfeited his best, most estimable, and endeared acquaintance, and so lost the woman whom he had rationally as well as passionately loved".

Fanny is an admirable character, but like all of JA's heroines, she is also not completely perfect (although she is nearer being almost always right than some of the more faulty heroines). I think Fanny is a little harsh on her views on Mary's possible future improvement if Edmund had married Mary. After all, six months at Mansfield was not enough to counteract the years of upbrinign by her embittered, unhappy aunt, the late Mrs Crawford, whose husband the Admiral was unfaithful to her -- Mrs Crawaford advised her niece and her nieces' friends to make mercenary marriages. Some fanfics also had Mary as flirtatious and unfaithful after marriage, but there is nothing in the text to suggest that. It was Henry who was sexually immoral, but not Mary. Mary may be immoral in other ways, but not sexually. Mary was cynical and disliked her uncle and spoke improperly of him because of his infidelity to her aunt -- she left his house after he brought his mistress into it.

What do others think? I think the characterisation of Mary in some fanfics which has her dumping Edmund for a richer suitor seem to confuse her with Lucy Steele, while the characterisation of her as being unfaithful after marriage seem to confuse her with Henry! I think Edmund and Mary would have got along tolerably well together if they had married -- perhaps in some ways not unlike Charles and Mary Musgrove -- re chap 6 Persuasion --

"he was undoubtedly superior to his wife [but] upon the whole, though there was very often a little disagreement .... they might pass for a happy couple. [She often felt] the want of more money, and a strong inclination for a handsome present from his father; but here, as on most topics, he had the superiority, for while Mary thought it a great shame that such a present was not made, he always contended for his father's having many other uses for his money, and a right to spend it as he liked."

Edmund is happier in the pure canon with Fanny, but I believe he could also have a tolerably contented marriage in the canon-AU with Mary. Would anyone like to write more of such MP fanfics?]]> Nikki N Tea RoomMon, 20 May 2013 11:50:19 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97213,97502#msg-97502 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97213,97502#msg-97502 Nicolette Tea RoomMon, 20 May 2013 11:37:07 +0100 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97410,97498#msg-97498 http://www.dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,97410,97498#msg-97498 Suzanne O Tea RoomMon, 20 May 2013 03:21:37 +0100